Our comments on the topic of manipulation and comments on Avi’s article
Since there were a large number of comments on Avi’s article regarding manipulation we decided to record an editorial to let everyone know where we stand.
Click download link to listen on this device: Download Show
Perhaps you should at least read the definition of “Naked Shorting” before you comment.
DEFINITION OF ‘NAKED SHORTING’
For clarification from the above link:
Naked shorting is illegal because it allows manipulators a chance to force stock prices down without regard for normal stock supply/demand patterns.
In 2007, the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) amended Regulation SHO to further limit possibilities for naked shorting by removing loopholes that existed for some broker/dealers. Regulation SHO requires lists to be published that track stocks with unusually high trends in “fail to deliver” shares. Some analysts point to the fact that naked shorting, albeit inadvertently, may help markets stay in balance by allowing the negative sentiment to be reflected in certain stocks’ prices.
Read more: Naked Shorting Definition | Investopedia http://www.investopedia.com/terms/n/nakedshorting.asp#ixzz3lB7WPkHJ
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Of course naked shorting needs to be illegal!
I, of course, need to clarify that the illegality needs to be enforced!
Naked shorting is illegal but anyone who can read English will immediately realize that there isn’t a single word about naked shorting in commodities, only stocks. That’s because there is no such thing as naked shorting in commodities. There is no moral, legal or logical reason to require a short put up the commodity. They do however put up margin.
That is interesting particularly when one realizes that shorting the commodity itself is essentially shorting the paper market. Maybe I am being simplistic.
Unfortunately it is NOT enforced.
It is also easy to spot at times.
e.g. recently on one stock, the amount of stock shorted was 30% greater than the total FLOAT, which is impossible, of course except for illegal shorting.
Happens all the time unfortunately, and some of the worst violators are Canadian brokerage houses.
That’s what I understand!
Listen those who were long, have no problem admitting their wrong and accepting the responsibility for the actions.
We just do NOT need to be ridiculed. Hearing that we are clueless and full of nonsense is not how anyone wants to be treated. Period.
The problem is: The complete lack of respect that Avi had for the members on this blog. I’ll say it again. Comments like “drivel” or “lol” are the ones that caused such an uproar. No respect whatsoever for those members of the blog.
excellent point Dave and I too am guilty of that ridicule, I’m a trader and that separates me from the majority of posters here who are buy and hold investors
I realize I’m at the wrong web-site so I will move on and follow Chris T from his web-site as well as fellow trader Avi
Its painfull enough you guys were sold a bill of goods by the so called gold experts, but may I suggest you respect those that do know how to trade and take out your frustrations on those that held your hands in the fire regardless of you only wanting to hear the buy side story its those that have repeatedly called bottom after bottom that you should really be upset with because OBVIOUSLY THEY HAVE NO CLUE!
Too bad to see you go JJ, your contributions have been excellent.
Was nice having someone other than A Listener and Bob seeing thru the B.S.
I sincerely hope that you stay with us original jj!
You are very important to us, my friend.
JJ thanks for mentioning this. I am not sold by any one. I bought first silver bars in 2004 following my own research.
Good for you. My last purchase of consequence also falls into that category and, I by the way, still have a profit.
My first one is around $7 USD ($8 Canadian) and subsequent one are within $10-$15 Canadian dollars. Cannot remember the US dollar values. Since most of them are in 2008 and 2009, Canadian dollar were high.
I sold a lot during 2011 but bought back a little early at $26-$30 and more below $20. At one time in 2011, all my holdings were free.
Been there, but certainly not at the present time!
OJJ..you paint with a wide brush and in the process direct your criticism at some who don’t deserve it. I have not been a trader since the 70’s and I am at that point in life where I simply hold the metals I have regardless of the high or low and intend to pass it on to the family to do with what they wish. I never leveraged the metals so there is no need for panic when the price drops. I visit this site to read the posts both for entertainment and information from those that keep current. I guess you would categorize me as a gold bug as I have held the metals through the highs and certainly recently during the lows. I was not sold a bill of goods by experts. I have made the purchases because I firmly believe that the financial mess will, at some point, come crashing down and I will have the metals as security. I believe that there are others on this site that have the same game plan. You are putting everyone in the same category which I feel is unfortunate. The ridicule you have for others really stands out in your posts and I see from your above post that you are now aware of it. Continued best wishes for your trading….
Ditto………….
DOUBLE DITTO…thanks Gator!!!!
Regarding rationale for purchasing, you and I share the same philosophy as I have stated over and over in the past.
Sorry, Dave I don’t believe that those comments were personally directed.
All markets are manipulated in most if not every country in the world, so the only legitimate argument is how often and when.
What happened to Rick Ackerman?
Rick will be back tomorrow, Mark.
By the way I do agree with you, but, in my mind, the definition of “manipulation” as I stated is really the key.
I recall being happy about Gary contributing when he first started, because he took manipulation into account.
A lot of people here attacked him for that, as well as anyone that dared suggest gold was in a downtrend.
I am convinced manipulation happens, but after hearing Bob and A Listeners opinions on it I think its probably a natural part of the market.
Overall, I figure JJ is most right with his opinion, “So what” Whats the big deal?”
Get over it, move on and make money.
Isn’t that what I said bb?
Thank you for weighing in, by the way.
Gary has much better records because he takes manipulation into consideration.
Again Lawrence, we must define just what we mean by manipulation. Perhaps it would be better to definite it as, “taking a profit by bending the rules”!
Manipulation by large organizations are in all market but they are motivated by profit. My manipulation theory is politically motivated.
It is not for profit. This is a lot harder on investors since the manipulator can suppress or boost the price disregard of their own losses.
Fair enough, Lawrence.
So why is the action politically motivated as you stated below?
Lawrence, please elaborate a bit on this. Thank you
If manipulation is by large entities, the volatility is on both side, and time is usually short since they need profit. It is great opportunity to trade. If it is manipulated by political reasons, the price volatility is one directional and time is very long and long enough for people to give up, especially people who do not consider manipulation. Some are even go to opposite direction and saw price comes back way after they give up. There is not much trading opportunity. Look at gold and especially silver in the last few years, they travel almost one way down and down big. Silver is called devil’s metal so the swing is supposed to be both ways.
They worst thing is it usually goes against most fundamental factors and make your research useless.
I remember in the early days, the fundamental worked even you can see traces of manipulation and in the last three years , more bullish gold gets the harder it gets knocked down. I read an Article by a student of former member. He said biggest tool in FX intervention is to create a trend by doing the intervention as long as they can and as heavy as they can. It could trick funds and people to go with them.
Interesting comment by the student.
great comments………………jmho
I guess for peace of mind at some point you agree to disagree. A man’s opinion changed against his will is still of the same opinion. So why try.
For me though the question is this- if there were only a physical market for precious metals, where would prices be? Lower…higher? Or even if the CFTC and SEC were doing what the were suppose to be doing or if people were going to jail for stealing the millions and billions from these markets that they were convicted of doing, would prices be the same?
Please tell me prices would be the same.
I cannot believe that if your scenario regarding the physical markets were in place that the prices would be as reflected today in the paper markets.
Like all commodities if there was only a physical market the spread between bid and ask would be much higher and the swings greater. Commodity markets have two main players, the commercials and the speculators. When only commercials can trade, rarely does a buyer find a willing seller and rarely does a seller find a willing buyer. That’s why commodity futures were set up 3000 years ago so speculators could provide the liquidity the commercials need.
The markets work just fine. The price is always right, we are often wrong.
The price of gold in the USA has never reflected a fraction of the US debt since 1933, when gold was confiscated by the US government and then immediately devalued. That rampant currency printing and devaluation has continued to present day. Foreign countries caught on in 1972 so gold had to be totally discredited to the common people. Silver was similarly treated in 1964 to devaluation.
The catch is, the bad guys read the history books too, so they don’t want a repeat of Weimar Germany, or Argentina, or Brazil, or Mexico. They have to keep the game going, and that means manipulating all markets and all forms of media. Thus we are allowed to have a medium of exchange but not a store of value, because that value is being stolen from us. That is the source of our anger. With someone else telling us what we are allowed to have for a medium of exchange.
Will gold ever reflect the true nature of debt world-wide? Will silver? I do not know. But it is easy to say what the rulers and enforcers want you to say, and you only get in trouble for saying things they do not want you to say.
I am a fundamentalist, and I became aware of precious metals in 2003. I was totally unprepared for the depths that the elite would go to in 2011 with regards to precious metals, however. We are now living in a cartoonish world reminiscent of King Louis XXIII of France, or even the Age of Terror in France.
jhpace………..”that the value is being stolen from us That is the source of our anger. With some else telling us what we are allowed to have for medium of exchange.”
100 % spot on……………TRUE WEIGHTS AND MEASURES……….very simple, from the beginning of time.
Of course!
Current currency not being a store of value is a very obvious phenomenon in our society and that is such a shame!
Great post, JHPace1 !
Fund Manager Takes a SnapShot of Paper Gold Terrorism
http://www.silverdoctors.com/fund-manager-takes-a-snapshot-of-paper-gold-terrorism/
http://investmentresearchdynamics.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Untitled11.png
Fund Manager Takes a SnapShot of Paper Gold Terrorism
http://www.silverdoctors.com/fund-manager-takes-a-snapshot-of-paper-gold-terrorism/
Stewie:
From the piece you just linked to:
We would have expected a big move up in gold as the logical response to a jobs report which badly missed Wall Street’s consensus estimate, and thus convincing the hedge fund algos once and for all that there would be no rate hike in September.
So the market didn’t move the way the investor thought and that has to mean gold was manipulated.
Good luck folks, everyone following that sort of logic is going to give away every cent they have. “The market moved against where I thought it would so it has to be manipulation.”
Yes, it’s manipulation. You are being manipulated just as Avi described.
In my opinion if was absolutely shameful the way Avi was treated with some of the nasty comments that were put forth yesterday. There are some people who need to take a deep breath and take a step back from the ledge.
Some of you gold and silver manipulation tyrants take the damn cake.
I’m surprised he came back on today or would ever come back on the show honestly.
But out of respect for Al and Cory he will and did.
I agree Vortex. I was a little surprised at the hostility as well but then most was from a poster who is never on this site. Avi is well known elsewhere and has a group that regularly harass him when he speaks or writes so it looks to me like they followed him here. Just sour grapes. There are just some people very jealous of his recent great calls. Hopefully he returns again.
Yep Listener,
Once Dave chimed in, it kind of turned into a nasty free for all with a few others as well.
The second you said Dave Kranzler it hit me like a rock. I thought to myself, the listener nailed it dead on. Of course there’s no way to prove it but the finger prints are compelling.
As I said before, there’s some folks here who need to chill out. Some are in way over their heads and apparently unable or unwilling to adjust to compelling market dynamics as they change or learn to maneuver around things coherently that they cannot control.
Pretty funny eh? Ha. But you are right, we don’t know about that Dave 100% but he has never been here before and the way the guy writes it just sounded a lot like him.
Great comments V and A Listener.
Are not raw emotions grand!
As always Al, thanks a million for the great show and open forums.
You and Cory are humble warriors with a best-in-class program with superb guests and great content.
V
Thanks V, truly appreciate you opinion.
Naked shorting should be illegal period! Legal shorting should not be frowned on as every short position needs to be covered eventually providing a support zone especially if the shorts become new longs!