Bob Moriarty and Manipulation. Thank you Mr. Bates
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We are talking semantics here, Gary.
I have to agree with Gary. The rules of the game are NOT enforced, because the CFTC is bought and paid for by the big guys.
Just watch movement on and off the board, TOTAL CRONYism.
It stinks. The CFTC is a criminal organisation. But the COMEX also has a monopoly in the US; that’s a problem.
Semantics and my name is Napoleon
Moriarty was exposed as being a skunk a few years ago on Silver Doctors. He is a another duplicit rat in the pump and short way how the well connected brokers and traders to the insiders who are part of the PILGRIM SOCIETY, make money.
Semantics and my name is Napoleon. Another friend of Al like so many on this site ie. Rick Ackerman, Roger who analyzes charts for the suckers who follow him, and other clowns who post crap on Kitco, the site with the most falsehoods and half truth anywhere except for presstv.
Bob was exposed years ago on Silverdoctors for being a lying skunk who leaves a stench wherever he wanders:
” at $38, Moriarty declared silver the world’s most overvalued asset.
Our call on Bob seems to have been much more accurate than his call on silver, as today Bob made these comments:
* “Gold and silver are not wealth”
*Compares gold and silver currently to housing bubble in 2007
*States that silver’s FINAL bull market top is in
*After bashing gold and silver Bob pumps pink sheet junior miner Northern Gold Mining, currently trading at $.34.
*States that silver’s May action was a “MANIA”
*Bob culminates his argument with this doozy: “In 160 years of trading, there has never been a correction in silver as severe as the 34% decline we experienced in to the May 17 low. Declines of this magnitude have always been an indication a final bull market top in place.”
I agree with Gary with regard to position limits — a good point.
I do have a question for Bob. In a previous audio he was pointing out that the vast majority of futures contracts are cash settled and do not entail physical delivery (typically a futures trader who wants to maintain the position, will roll forward into a future contract before delivery becomes an issue).
However, what does Bob think about the following scenario… if we experience a shortage in the physical market at some point, is it not possible that a much higher percentage of those holding long gold contracts in the futures market will ask for delivery and in so doing, wind up breaking the back of the paper market?
Thanks.
I forwarded this on to Bob. Should get an answer back shortly.
Gary It depends on what “Legal” means. It might be similar to what you, me an others on this page think legal is, but for those who are in control of the government legal means something entirely different. Normalcy bias works in many different ways.
How does supply and demand work when markets operate in margin, rehypothecation, derivatives and QE? During such markets supply and demand are really meaningless until such time that the “manipulations” using such tools no longer work.
But you are completely right, real price discovery has been severely damaged and the payback to those who did the damage will be devastating.
Where is the German gold right now? Where is the gold that other nations intrusted to the Fed? And the big question is, where is the United States of America gold? My guess is, Gone, Gone and don’t know but probably impaired beyond repair, respectfully.
I agree, Clay!
Bob is missing the point about manipulation. It’s not about whether the markets are manipulated or not, it’s about who is manipulating the market & whether it is legal or not. If in fact it is the government/Fed/or government, Fed controlled banks who are ultimately manipulating the markets with the ability to print money or use tax dollars [which is not much different than printing] then we have to consider the question legality. Is it or should it be legal for the government to clandestinely operate in the commodities market for the purpose of manipulating
price?
COLOR BLINDNESS IS NOT JUST THE INABILITY TO DISTINGUISH RED.
IT IS THE INABILITY TO DISTINGUISH RED, GREEN OR BLUE OR ANY MIX THEREFORE.
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO GET UP EARLY TO FIND SOMETHING MR BM DOESNT KNOW.
YOU JUST NEED TO KNOW THE SCORE AND NOT LET HIM OR ANYONE ELSE FEED YOU A LINE.
IF HES WRONG ABOUT THIS WHAT ELSE IS HE WRONG ABOUT?
Too many people possess the gift of gab. They know how,to talk a good game.
WHEN SOMEONE TRIES TO TELL YOU THE FACTS ABOUT COLOR BLINDNESS OR MANIPULATION OR THE DIRECTION OF THE GOLD PRICE CALL HIM ON IT!!
That ones free…
Idle conversation The Greater. Trust me, I have known Bob for a long time and he is very bright!
Ya, He’s a bright know-it-all.
He has been good at spotting tops and bottoms during this bull market.
However I don’t agree with his unconditional acceptance of manipulation.
With computers and real transparency it could end. Let’s see who is really making the trades. The big players can see all our holdings and stops IAW their Counterparty Risk Management Group, crmpolicygroup.org. Why is this collusion legal?
James, you are specifically talking about Newton(ian) color blindness when you talk about red/green color blindness. There are several different types of color blindness.
Great job …..Bob M.
YOUR ……TOP GUN….
What a through job
Maybe I misunderstood you Heavy. I thought you commented yesterday that our site was light weight.
Did I misunderstand you?
Its these relentless gold bears and some of the same characters butchering
the forum with the same trash. Over and over again.
If our fellow gold comrads may not be strong hand’s and even the much stronger
hands don’t need deliberate acts of intentional breaking of our confidence.
Its not the guys that come on the forum and post their bear views.
ITS THE RELENTLESS POSTS FROM THE SAME GUYS WITH ALL OUT ATTACKS.
or they may just post everyday and its always the same…
BULLS NEED TO STICK TOGETHER TO KEEP OUR CONFIDENCE UP.
Everyone here wants to prosper here except those that like being a….
NUISANSE ..our of envy or just revenge……OR whatever
Read my post to you on garys forum on monday..about the last message on there
Good point Heavy, but we can’t paint everyone with the same brush.
THE MINERS ARE ON THE MOVE – BIG TIME…I havent seen this in OVER 30 Months!!!!
The miners are the BIGGEST..look at CORVUS gold today…rockin and rollin…BIG AL…we should be all over this on the blog….Matthew was absolutely right!!
Matthew has been repeating the same thing for 30 months. He is not that bright.
Yet, BSman, even I know the difference between chickens and gold —a difference that still escapes you.
No, you don’t know the difference, Matthew. I doubt you will ever get it either. Your one dimensional bleating about precious metals is tiring and misses the point that should be obvious from an historical perspective. Gold is fascinating though because of how it bridges both primitive and modern cultures. I will grant that it has a similar allure in both however our trading today has become quite a bit more sophisticated in the scope of choices available. There is certainly a close link between the accumulation of assets that have traditionally been used as a near substitutes for foodgrains, wax, wood, incense, salt and even meats though. There is an intimate link between precious metals and exchanges of goods between countries and those goods were primarily foods in early times, including salt or other basic raw materials. So chicken and wheat are representative of money (silver, gold, shells) and vice versa especially where they were not otherwise easily traded without the innovation of a currency medium. That is how early trade evolved and it is how and why our modern currencies came into being beginning with the first paper chits proving ownership of grain stores. So yes, chicken equates to wealth rather directly and you would know this if you have ever experienced living in a developing economy that still functions along the basic lines of trade and exchange that were well known before the innovations of electronic trading and paper currency came into widespread use. They barter here still. It remains the most common form of economic exchanges between neighbors in the rural parts to the country. Chicken is money. Learn that and you might get a better insight into what wealth really means when it is stepped up to the modern world.
Birdman
Chicken and wheat are not representative of money. They represent food.
Wrong Richard. You really want to be in Matthews camp on this one?
Fascinating interview. I agree with you Bob. We did get a bell at the bottom of the market.
Yeh we did. But, you know, the fact about the Sprott losses was true. But what does that really mean in the total scheme of things?
It means trust your better instincts and don’t listen to others when your gut is telling you what they are saying is in conflict with the charts you are reading. As a rule I don’t listen to anyone anymore. You have to do your own show. For better or for worse. Sometimes the pretty girl really is the worst one to marry. Hormones and trading are a lethal mix.
“Listen to all, follow NONE and walk your life path the best way YOU can!” It really is that simple, imho.
there are many different types and degrees of color blindness
i dont questions BM smartness
just seems a little late to be coming out now on manipulation
Bob was just talking about how large players can overwhelm smaller investors. That is something I agree with because it is a fact of life. I would not even call it manipulation to be honest. Just the ability to have staying power by having deeper pockets. The kind of talk of manipulation that makes me crazy is when guys start saying ludicrous things like the Rothchilds and a cabal of insiders have some massive plot to defraud the markets through a carefully orchestrated collusion or some other similar nonsense. Or they say the Fed is directing banks to fleece retail gold investors. That is just bunk.
Of course it is, Bird!
Guys. Please STOP! and quite this manipulation talk. It’s waste of time. Like Bob said it won’t make u any money and you in fact may lose money. This was waste of Bob’s time IMO. Bob can express on other topic that are usefull. Want to learn about manipulation there is so much out there. Hit GATA site and follow Bill Murphy. Otherwise leave bob alone with stupid manipulation talk. IT’s heavy there. Period. Deal with it or quite and gtfo
Your last sentence is absolutely correct SEB!
Every short must have a matching long, etc.
Yeah but it depends on how many longs and shorts are in the market. I agree with Jon on the seller offing a lot of contractys and then going through the bid stack until possible no bidders are left and you have a big price drop.
It doesn’t matter really if he has to buy the contracts back later, because he can wait for an opportune moment and/or for the price he chooses for when he buys back.
Also, of course, the player who sells a whole load of contracts when the market is less liquid in the middle of the night, can run all kinds of stop loss orders to increase the amount of selling and the impact on price. Perhaps then he can buy his 1000s of contracts back soon afterwards at the lower price.
I agree with Bob more in this editorial than in the previous one.
Life isn’t fair!
Life may not be fair, but when you realize that fact it can become very good!
Good to see Bob walking back his original position cause I agree with most everything else he says and enjoy hearing him say it.
We have gone from to big to fail,
to ,to big to jail. Manipulation and outright criminal fraud is no longer punishable, but easily remedied with shareholders money.
Ain’t that the truth!
If the price of gold starts rising to fast,watch for the CFTC to raise margin requirements.
Glad this discussion came up. I lost all respect for Bob when he denies thru the yrs there is no manipulation. Especially when he goes on to basically insult the intelligence of those holding that view. I have been trading these markests for decades and watch the prices moves minute by minute…. If someone throws down a day order equal to worldwide annual production we aren’t talking “price discovery”. If a sellers throws a massive sell order during illiquid hours they aren’t looking for best price. When a central bank announces they are going to sell thus driving the market down BEFORE they sell (England) they aren’t looking for best price. When margins are raised again and again DESPITE an already precipitice fall we aren’t talking Comex price management……should I go on, because I could.
SEB says:
“Guys. Please STOP! and quite this manipulation talk. It’s waste of time”……….. Since when is knowledge and a correct observation of market movements a waste of time ? I guess knowing the next starlit jr miner ( from Bob) is somehow much more valuable…..Especially “valuable” if you already own the stock….Seriously, there’s more than one “manipultion” going on. In fact, just the word “manipulation” might bring out a host of lawyers…just saying.
Big Al….I deal with it every day. I know what to expect and trade accordingly. But denying reality or just telling someone to gtfo serves no purpose. Fact is we are talking wealth being directly and illegally stolen. Lives and IRAs destroyed because of our gov actions. All to the enrichment of the bankers who somehow make 365 winning trades a yr…..
Finally, if you have the balls to print it Big Al…….. When I look at the overwhelming evidence where even the Fed acknowledges manipulation….you have to be ignorant or on the come (paid) to make that claim.
The house of cards has a new dealer.The only problem is that the game hasn’t changed.
If Bob Moriarty were as smart as he is pompous, then I would listen to him.
Glad to see he is correcting himself on the zero-sum / manipulation thing. Notice the backpedaling?
By the way, what about blue / green colorblindness, Mr. Genius.
Listen, manipulation of a market is one thing and outright fraud is another. Where exactly did all this gold come from that was dumped onto the market to manipulate the price lower? Why don’t these brilliant anti-manipulators ever explain that??? The answer is: they can’t, so they conveniently avoid doing so. Did all this gold come from allocated accounts? Are bullion banks telling their customers that they have allocated gold, and then turn around and sell this gold into the market which they have no right to touch? To drive the price lower? What kind of idiocy is that? It is a total farce to allow the custodians of a customer’s gold (the bullion banks) the ability to trade and short the market. This arrangement is an age old scam that presumably originated with the Bank of England hundreds of years ago.
Ya….well…..there is corruption everywhere and those who do business …..now I’m
referring to the average person who is not innocent of taking advantage of customers
or others.
CORRUPTION IS A FACT OF LIFE….you might even examine yourselves.
SKELETONS IN YOUR CLOSET…..Ha….probably can’t count them all
FACT……you will never find a perfect system or anything out there or anyone person
Yes, I understand its complicated and frustrating….
HOWEVER, ANY REASONABLE PERSON KNOWS NOTHING IS 100%.
Always going to be something.
SO LEARN RESPECT FOR THE MARKETS AND YOU WILL PROSPER GREATLY.
Word to the wise….
Not only that…..I agree with Bob M.
THATS HANDS DOWN TOO.
Bob has said everything is manipulated…you cant avoid it. There is no
perfect system. I have bought lots of land. Lots of corruption in that business.
YOU CAN’T HAVE IT PERFECT……..NO WAY. ..no such thing
Get that through your heads……ONCE AND FOR ALL
why do you continue to interview this old fellow with his convoluted logic concerning gold futures? It is quite obvious he is suffering from cognitive dissonance.
Bob Moriarty is one of the sagest people in the gold market bar none. You can say what you want, but he has an unreal ability to call major tops and bottoms. Don’t listen at your own peril. Go ahead and believe that JPM is going to default an COMEX deliveries or some crap like that. This has been the mantra for over 15 years!! COMEX is NOT going to default on gold and silver!!
“WICKED DEBT FRAUD” The one and ONLY answer to the debt problem is to declare it null and void because of FRAUD! It is fraud because it is mathematically impossible to repay ! It can not be repaid because the interest is never created on the loan and that is fraud ! And fraud voids all ! If we don’t void all out of thin air debt the bankers will own almost EVERYTHING ! And we will be homeless slaves ! They have a license to counterfeit ! Can I counterfeit the money to repay the loan ? Why not ? If we even attempt to repay a impossible debt (the national debt) all we do is show our ignorance ! The way to fix this mess is so simple a 3rd grader can figure it out ! We void the fraudulent debt! and everyone keeps ALL the items they have so called debt on ! And then we start to use a debt free currency and / or gold and silver ! And then we will have a robust economy like never before — OR WE LET THE BANKERS STEAL EVERYTHING !
I was in about the third grade when the news was talking about the national debt and I asked my dad who do we owe money to and who could possibly be richer than the United States? and where did they get the money? And then my dad took a gulp off his beer and said we owe it to our self ! I said that’s the dumbest thing I ever heard of ! that’s like me borrowing from my right pocket and setting fire to the interest and putting the rest in my left pocket ! This was about 1972 ! But Dad was wrong! We owe it to international Bankers running the biggest Ponzi scheme on earth called The Federal reserve system! And yes it really is this simple ! The bankers have a shoe in on ALL loans they make ! All they have to do is stop lending and then start foreclosing on ALL debts!-meaning they now own everything that has a debt by having a license to counterfeit ! So we” 1″ keep getting fleeced by continuing to pay this fraudulent scheme ! OR” 2 “we declare ALL out of thin air debt NULL AND VOID because of FRAUD ! And we keep everything we have so called debt on! MOST people don’t get this part Every car, boat, house, machine, tool, farm,ect. has already been paid for by the fraudulent paper! So no one looses ! WE sure as hell cant give it to the banksters! (let them steal it) AND IT DOESENT MATTER IF YOU WANT TO REDUCE THE DEBT 99% ITS STILL UNPAYABLE! So when we void the FRAUD This will be the ultimate FRESH start for everyone ! Share this if you want THE solution to the WORLDS problems! If not everything will continue to get worse until we have HONEST DEBT FREE MONEY /and GOLD AND SILVER ! And there is plenty of gold and silver! just Divide the paper money (FRN) by the gold /silver and you have the value of them! NO MATTER WHAT IT COMES TO per OZ ! Then we would be happy to work for SAY A ONE OZ. SILVER COIN A day ! Because a one OZ. silver coin ( REAL MONEY ) will buy what $100 – $200 did before the reset! THINK ABOUT IT! This is what Scripture calls the jubilee ! “WICKED” Debt And the amount and size of the debt has nothing to do with it being mathematically impossible to pay This fraud is so “WICKED” that even a $10 loan is a Ponzi scheme here’s how it works ! I’m the new banks first customer ( CHUMP ) I borrow $10 @ 1% interest I now owe the bank $10.10 but ALL the money in the world is $10 the .10 cents doesn’t exist so some one else has to borrow some so called money and I have to find a way to get .10 cents from them so I can repay my loan ! Now say they borrowed $10 also now I somehow get .10 cents from them to pay my loan back ! But now he is short .20 cents to pay his loan ! so now you can see how a $100,000. house that will cost you $ 265,000 to pay off because you have to pay $165,000 in interest is a GIGANTIC PONZI SCHEME ! Now multiply that by millions of people in the U.S. and you can see how It turned into the monster debt we see today ! And for the loans that do get repaid multiple people have to default on there loans for you to pay off your loan ! NOW you can understand why we have a rapidly growing homeless problem ! Now that is a WICKED debt money system that we must declare Void !
Only one problem with forgiving all debt and letting people keep things without paying for them – you are rewarding profligacy and punishing thrift. It should be precisely the opposite. Find a way for folks with no debt to benefit as much as folks with debt and then you really will have the perfect solution. Agreed that banks should get nothing.
Look at how nutty some gold guys are . The above post says “bankers” steal , and quotes paying $265k for a $100k house because it’s a “Ponzi scheme” .
As if the banks are supposed to loan you money for free .
In investing in gold , this is the mentality I have come across all too often , gold has risen and should rise further , but there are too many extremists thinking it is
the vehicle that will “justify” their mania’s . I can only wonder what they will be saying after gold has made a major move . Who or what will be the vehicle they will transfer their mania’s to then?
Waldipup, are you aware that the money a bank loans for a house doesn’t exist until the loan is approved? They should be loaning money that they actually have (from deposits). Their game is debt slavery.
Among the other things I like about Al Korelin, I like that he reads the comments and frequently responds. Regarding manipulation, let’s put aside whether BM did or did not in the past deny manipulation. Now that we agree there is, what are you going to do about it? Since we now realize that “taking the government to court” is not going to happen, the only solution that I see is left is to position yourself accordingly, and that is to buy gold & silver. The Ponzi we are now in may be kept alive for the rest of our lives, or it may end tomorrow. I, however, would not invest in a chain letter just because I thought it could stay alive long enough for me to quadruple my money; rather, I’d rather make a bet with someone that the chain letter would eventually fall apart, because while we don’t know WHEN it will, we do know that it inevitably will. The same rationale leads me to gold.
GUYS….I HAVE BEEN TRADING THIS SILVER AND GOLD MARKET DAILY SINCE 1973 AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT WITHOUT A DOUBT THE SILVER AND GOLD MARKET ARE RIGGED ALMOST DAILY. I HAVE HAD MARGIN CALLS AS HIGH AS $600,000 AND EVEN GOT A CHECK FROM THE HUNTS IN 1989. THE GOVERNMENT IS RIGGING THIS TO DISCOURAGE THE TRADING OF THE METALS AS THE DOLLAR IS ON ITS LAST LEGS. I HAVE LEARNED TO PLAY THE RIG SUCCESFULLY. SEE WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT…
What about those of us who don’t want to “play” but protect our earnings with Gold & Silver? Why is it fair that bank insiders can profit on the manipulation let alone connected govt officials?
Fraud is fraud.
We are supposed to have a free market not a controlled & managed one.
In the face of now ~Proven~ lies and deceit emanating from the highest levels of government on many varied levels, in order to address this issue of ‘manipulation’ of the Precious Metals Markets, one need only ask the following question:
How important is it for the United States to protect the interest of the $Dollar – worldwide…?
James…is that one brain cell talking
Quite frankly I think that’s all you have.
Well, maybe two ….for some of the words you used.
WOW….LOOK AT THE BIG BRAIN…..ON JAMES
Considering the hostile attitude governments and banks have towards a rising gold and silver price it should not be surprising that the price of the metals is manipulated / managed by the powers that be. Call it an executive privilege that the powers that be enjoy but is illegal or taboo for commoners to indulge in.
So much for the rule of law.
Waldipup…..You’re showing your own ignorance/prejudice when you call “gold bugs” extremists. Paper “bugs” are the one’s that are corrupt, having no knowledge of our Constitution. Paper bugs ARE the reason we face a financial black hole…..
Paperbugs are making money…..the other bugs are getting squashed.
Despite gold correcting 40% and the Dow rising 50% over the last two years, gold has STILL smoked the Dow since 2000 (400% vs. about 25%). YTD, the Dow has already dropped 10% vs. gold.
In mid-1998 Chairman Alan Greenspan in a statement to Congress stated that the central banks stand ready to lease gold in increasing quantities should the price rise.” Is that not manipulation???
Who said the government or their surrogates don’t manipulate the price of gold????? You’d have to be a fool to believe otherwise. Gold is a measuring stick against the world’s reserve currency that is going to change in the near future.
Holy cow Al! How do you put up with all of these nonsensical comments?! Is it even worth it to deal with these nuts?
WANT TO SEE A RIGGED MARKET?…JUST LOOK AT THE 30 YEAR CONTINUOUS LINE CHART. I COUNT 10 POINTS ON AN UPTREND CHART GOING BACT TO 1984. 1984!!!!. AND IT”S STILL GOING. YOU CANNOT SHORT THIS MARKET AS THE SPREAD IS AGAINST YOU. THE S&P IS ANOTHER RIGGED MARKET. STOPS GOING DOWN IN THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE. DOUBLE BOTTOMS AND THE RIGGERS CLEAN OUT THW SHORTS. WAKE UP MORIARTY.
30 YEAR BOND…
Thanks to Bob for his great commentary. When I hear people talk about getting Germany getting their gold back it comes to mind that there may be more reasons than missing gold that they don’t get their gold back. The problem is that people hear what they want to hear and then shut down. Is it possible that the US doesn’t have the German gold? Yes, but it is also possible that the gold is being held in abeyance for collateral. There are always more than one explanation, but people are inclined to jump at the one they want to have be the truth. I have learned, and it took a damn long time, that cold hard facts are hard to come by. Don’t take what you read or hear on the internet for truth, research, research, research….
I agree Bob. I think this all goes back the the Second World War, the rebuilding of Germany, reparations and issues of dominance. The US would view repatriation demands as an act of hostility and betrayal at a time like this. This is pure politics, not an issue realted to shortages of which none exist.
scfam says ” Holy cow Al! How do you put up with all of these nonsensical comments?! Is it even worth it to deal with these nuts? ” ……..I believe you just made one of those “nonsensical” comments. I guess that’s easier than making an intelligent reply to the many well articulated, factual comments made on this site Al has provided……….. Thank you Al for the opportunity to express our thoughts even though FACTUAL TRUTHS are still considered on the fringe…… Definitely a reflection of the times ( and citizenship).
I have been reading Bob’s site (321gold.com) for a couple years now. I made a point of writing down every single recommendation he has made for the juniors – (that I could find) then researched the price action.
Anyone care to guess what I discovered? Has anyone else done this?
The long term trend for gold is bearish. This little bump is just another run up, but the trend is down – there is no denying it. Look at the charts ffs!
At the end of the day – banks and governments simply cannot ever allow gold and silver to become money. That ends all the schemes, ends all advancement.
Gold and silver will NEVER be real money. The powers that be will not allow it.
If you want to make money in those markets, you need to treat them like any other commodity….look at the action, buy low and sell high.
And don’t be childish…doesn’t matter if you have a futures contract…the rules of engagement are very clear…contracts DO NOT have to be settled for the commodity – they can be legally settled with fiat, and that is why so many people are deluded….they forget the rules of engagement.
He never defined manipulation other than to say one guy has more money than another. That is not manipulation, and he never cited one fact making his undefined term “manipulation” legal. Furthermore, his signal is only confirmed by the fact markets moved higher, which is not a signal, just a coincidence.
The government can make anything legal, but that doesn’t make it lawful. This guy is full of it.
The rule of law states that the law is just and equitable unto all citizens. The rule of law has been the legal framework for the Western civilization for over 1500 years. It sounds like Bob reconciles manipulation with the fact that there is money to be made and I wonder aloud where on that sliding scale that he foresees any reason to challenge the means by which that known manipulation occurs.
As for me, I regard that the thief equates his ability to steal as license to do so.
Very well put, tommyboy.
Citing ‘manipulation’ – as a general rule in today’s market parlance, is akin to talking about Area 51… If you dare to step outside and question anything, you are labeled a ‘conspiracy theorist’…
Why? Because it is a convenient discussion-ender by method of simply tarring your opponent with the brush of non-credibility because of a worldview or set of beliefs that differs with ‘accepted thought’.
Therefore, no one of any so-called ‘credibility’ or weight with market movers wants to be associated with questioning the status quo – it’s touching the 3rd rail… These guys won’t be convinced until it basically falls on their collective heads, and even then, they will have an ‘out’ to suggest they ‘told you so’ all along… It’s quite pathetic to watch really.
When I invariably garner the “conspiracy theorist” association, I respond with something like: there are conspiracy theories and conspiracy facts..which would you like to address? I further point out that there is a distinct difference between a conspiracist and a conspirator–the latter should be the one where our disdain is focused towards. The fact that those two words and attendant definitions are often conflated speaks much about the motivations of the ones conflating them.
In all, we are to be free to assess that which works and that which doesn’t and further be free to correct whatever inequities are found in a given system. If we are prevented from such a course, then it’s upon those who would stifle the process to furnish cause.
” These guys won’t be convinced until it basically falls on their collective heads, ”
That’s exactly right. I suppose the anti-conspiracy crowd expects the bullion banks to routinely come forward and announce to the world that they are manipulating the price of gold lower by selling gold they already sold to someone else. I mean, doesn’t everyone who commits a crime come forward and admit what they did? Or has it been a great travesty of justice to jail all those millions of people on circumstantial evidence? Perhaps the anti-conspirators should lobby that all these criminals be freed since there is no conclusive proof (eye witness or confession) that they committed crimes. Sheesh…..
I think you are just poking around at what the main point of this is. There may and probably is manipulation so deal with it. Crying about it on websites and telling everyone the world is unfair isn’t going to change anything. You are right, it isn’t fair but neither is half the things that go on in the world. Bitching about it will never do anything. Those that bitch the loudest should be mad at themselves. It is a zero sum game! Some make money and some loose.
Bob –
Your sentiments are valid – and true. However… The ‘everyone does it’ sentiment does not properly address the issue of gold, because gold isn’t just some ‘commodity’, or casual practice that can be accepted along with all of a nation’s warts… It is a bellwether; a reflection on the health of a nation’s currency, and a ‘disinfectant’ of sorts, to the monetary shenanigans and fiscal chicanery of a government’s inner workings. The fact is, governments Do Care – very much, about gold and there is much at stake on the global stage of confidence and credibility in a nation’s currency as it pertains to how they treat, report, store and verify their own gold holdings, as well as those being held in trust for other nations.
Last, if there really is a gold shortage, even the paper market will not be able to suppress it. Simple supply and demand will overwhelm. But again, most of us, me included, have no way to know if their is indeed a shortage. Go ahead and cite all the BS you have read and show me the conclusive proof. You can’t! That is a fact. Just because a lot of people say it doesn’t make it true.
“Simple supply and demand will overwhelm. ”
This unfortunately is a gross over simplification of what will happen. Its like saying – who cares about Lehman Brothers, they will just fail if they make bad investments. No, the failure of Lehman Brothers nearly brought down the system. And this is far far bigger than Lehman Brothers. If in fact the bullion banks have sold gold into the market that belongs to someone else and if in fact the bullion banks have sold a massive amount of non existent gold to westerners, what do you suppose will come of this? How will such a revelation affect the world’s financial system? How will this affect westerner’s and the economy of the west? How will it affect what little trust remains in the banking system? This is not some kind of simple scam here that seems to be minimized so much. The unfortunate reality here is how far things have gone. It is mind boggling how something like this has gone on as far as it has.
Don, again, you are speculating. Where are all of these “westerners” looking for their gold? You are regurgitating stuff you read on the internet. If you owned this gold and can’t get it back that is one thing, but saying they have sold it to many people and those people can’t get it back is another. I have been following this market for a long long time and since the mid 90’s I have heard that COMEX was going to blow up and that there were going to be huge ramifications….. Haven’t see it yet. If it does ever happen, the price of gold would skyrocket. where is the issue?
Here are some simple facts that should make one cringe:
1. An independent audit of US Treasury gold has not been done since 1955.
2. Germany is basically unable to repatriate its gold (which, according to the anti-conspiracy crowd) should still be there.
3. The bullion banks never report how much gold they actually have nor how much they have sold. This right here is a major major problem. It opens the way for all kinds of fraud to occur.
4. Several years ago Morgan Stanley was caught charging fees for non-existent gold. Now why did they have to be caught? Shouldn’t they have come forward and admitted it on their own?
5. There has been a huge flow of gold to China in the past year and the price drops.
6. The largest Dutch bank, ABN Amro defaulted on gold deliveries last March-April. Yet at that time, the price of gold fell. This was follwed by a second Dutch bank.
“since the mid 90′s I have heard that COMEX was going to blow up and that there were going to be huge ramifications….. Haven’t see it yet. ”
I hope you are right… but, I have also prepared myself for the possibility you are not right…
Good luck Don. I think gold will go much higher but will have many large downs in the mean while. Its a marathon and not a sprint.
Bob definately has an axe to grind with the manipulationists. But why I wonder? What offends him so much? We know this is an emotive subject but usually these emotions come from people who believe in the manipulation scenarios. Why is Bob so anti manipulation? Is he in denial? Maybe not but he comes across as pompous, arrogant and generally not giving a damn for everyday people who see their wealth eroded whether in the markets or by inflationary forces. From his comments he sees GATA more as a bunch of whingers than crusaders for properly functioning gold markets. It seems he has the outlook that if you lose money then somehow that makes you an idiot. It doesnt matter what point you have to make, at least be civil otherwise you end up coming across as a bit of a dick.
” Every short should have a corresponding long”. So are we now saying that naked shorts dont exist or are not a problem of size?
“Manipulation isnt wrong, its just a fact of life” mmm, like murder isnt wrong its just a fact of life?!
Bob also doesnt define what he means by manipulation. There are varying degrees, some legal some not
Problem is…….
The people with “deep pockets” is the FED.
How deep are their pockets? Infinite, since they can produce all the fiat dollars they wish.
By the way, their manipulation is only to suppress the price of PM and commodities.
A major flaw in all the reasoning done is, one cannot sell in futures and paper derivatives multiples of 100:1 while one is not capable to deliver. That is not manipulation, that is crime.
More than crime, that is a “all or nothing” war being implemented by the FED and its central planners that will end in tragedy not only for the markets (what markets? there are no markets anymore!), but for the western population as a whole. The chinese know this perfectly.
For goodness sake, your reasoning is nightmarish, to say the least.
I will never read anything from this man or from his site again.
These are just some thoughts from a far away observer from Brazil.
I have to disagree with Bob on the manipulation score. It’s not legal to manipulate the markets. That’s why positions limits are set. Of course if the regulators ignore position limits then a big player can push the market where they want it to go.
Bear markets begin when there is too much supply and too little demand. But that’s not what we saw last year. Supply collapsed and demand went through the roof. That can’t happen and price go down unless it is an artificial market. That alone confirms this was an artificial bear market.
The positive take away is that they have probably damaged the physical market that price will now go much higher than it would have if the market had been allowed to trade freely.